Learning From the Collapse of Catholic Ireland

In the sixth century, the monk St. Columba left the Emerald Isle and sailed to Iona to build a new monastery and spread the Christian faith. For centuries afterwards, Ireland held a reputation as a deeply and even fundamentally Catholic nation, responsible for training priests and religious scholars and sending them out across the wide world to preach and teach the Gospel. But today, there is only one seminarian currently studying for the priesthood to serve the entire Archdiocese of Dublin, which comprises over 200 parishes and approximately one million baptized Catholics.

According to data from the Irish Census Bureau and the Iona Institute, only 69 percent of Irish identify as Catholic, down from 84 percent in 2011 and over 90 percent in 2006. A 2023 survey from analytics and data company Amárach found that only about 14 percent of Irish Catholics attend Sunday Mass.

To serve the nearly four million Irish who still identify as Catholic, the nation has just over 2,000 priests, but 15 percent of them are over the age of 75 (and not yet retired) and 25 percent are between the ages of 60 and 75. Less than 3 percent of priests in Ireland are under the age of 40.

How did a nation once famous for being the Land of Saints and Scholars reach such lows? And what can American Catholics learn from the example of Ireland? The American Spectator spoke with Hermann Kelly, a former Catholic school teacher and previous editor of The Irish Catholic who is now the founder and president of the conservative Irish Freedom Party. The following interview has been edited for clarity.

The American Spectator (TAS): Hermann, thank you very much for making the time to talk with us. The news right now is that there is only one seminarian currently studying to serve the entire archdiocese of Dublin, and that’s rather paltry. In my own home diocese in Baltimore, we’ve got two major seminaries that are just packed. But one seminarian to serve an entire archdiocese seems rather on the meager side. Can you share with us what this indicates about the state of Catholicism in Ireland at present?

Hermann Kelly (HK): Well, a number of years ago, I did an article for the Irish Examiner in the newspaper. And it basically showed, I believe it was 1965, was the year of the highest rate of seminarians or vocations to the priesthood in Ireland. At the same time, it also had the lowest rate of murder and manslaughter. I think there was one murder and two manslaughters, something like that.

And this inverse correlation between religious vocation and a more virtuous and a less vicious society — I believe there’s a connection between the two. Because when people respond to the vocation of the priesthood it shows a desire to be pleasing to God, but it also shows a society of commitment. And that commitment also reflects on the whole number and rate of marriages.

Things that take long-term commitment, like a vocation to the priesthood or to be a nun, to be married and things like that, implies things that take a long-term commitment. So with loss of religious vocations, there has been a less virtuous society. Ireland has become much more violent in regards to crime, sexual assault, rape, break, and entry, etc. Ireland has become much worse.

Things are happening now in Ireland which only a short a decade ago were unthinkable, things that were unheard of are now becoming a regular occurrence. And a lot — some of it, not all of it, but some of this — is linked to the whole fall away in religious faith and practice.

And it’s linked directly to the sharp fall in seminarians for Dublin archdiocese. I believe per capita, Ireland is one of the lowest religious vocations countries in the world, and given that in the 1950s and 60s, Ireland was noted across the world for its huge number of vocations — actually, there were so many vocations that there wasn’t room for these people, for the priests and religious in Ireland, and they had to be sent abroad, to England, to America, to all over Latin America and Africa, there were so many religious vocations in Ireland.

So it really does show a collapse in religious practice, a collapse in religious vocations. And what has happened is that Ireland has become less virtuous. There’s a much higher rate of criminality and vicious crimes, and violent crimes, sexual assault and rape and stuff has gone up dramatically.

TAS: And what has led to or contributed to this decline — in religious vocations, in the practice of faith, in virtue?

HK: Well, there was a pamphlet or a booklet produced by the Association of Irish Religious Orders two decades ago now; I think it was called “Fire in the Forest.” It basically showed post-Vatican II the huge drop in vocations. Actually, it also not only showed a huge drop in vocations, but also showed that many who had joined the religious orders, be it the priesthood or to be nuns, etc., left their vocation.

And it explained in this booklet that the Second Vatican Council was a huge — not only did it undermine and reject what previously has been the traditional part of the Church in regards to not only philosophy, liturgy, theology, but also there was like a psychological bomb that went off, and that everything that you were taught that belonged to the tradition of the Church, which is meant to be held by all universally and forever going forward, was to be not only no longer approved, but not allowed and forbidden.

Like when you look at the old Mass, like for decades after Vatican II, it basically wasn’t allowed, it was discouraged. A lot of the traditional theology of the Church was disavowed. Instead of the traditional Rite of the Mass in Latin, you had, I don’t know, balloons and clowns and paper maché and folk groups in its place.

I think that people found the changes, the dramatic liturgical changes — which also were reflected in doctrine and philosophy as well — found that very destabilizing and called into question their belief in the Church and the Christian faith itself.

And this was an act of the Second Vatican Council and the bishops who were there that called into question what were foundational tenets of the Catholic tradition and the Catholic faith. And I think people found this very disconcerting. There was a huge number of nuns and priests who left their religious vocation, and this was then followed by a drop in the number of vocations.

So I think to get that back, the only orders, I believe, in America and in Ireland are the traditional orders. These kind of 19th century French orders, which were popular in Ireland, these new kind of 19th century orders have completely gone to the wall when it comes to number of vocations: some of them haven’t had vocations for like over a decade.

And the only orders that are getting vocations are the traditional orders, linked to the Traditional Latin Mass — and also the Dominicans, who are very traditional in doctrine — and orthodox, self-consciously orthodox orders in the Novus Ordo rite, as well as Traditional Latin Mass orders are doing well also.

So I think people seriously consider what they will give their life to, what they think is worthwhile dedicating their whole life to. And it’s obviously to the traditional orders, or the very self-consciously orthodox diocesan or religious orders of the Novus Ordo rite as well. When you look at who’s getting the numbers, that’s who’s getting it. And so the woke religion … post-Vatican II hasn’t engendered the vocations, nor has it engendered, commitment, lifelong commitment. And people simply aren’t willing to give their life to it. But tradition in the Church still is attractive to many young people in America and in Ireland.

But there has been a religious collapse in Ireland. It’s quite amazing, actually, because in the 50s and 60s Irish identity was, “I’m Irish and I’m Catholic, I’m an Irish Catholic,” and the two things were completely intertwined. I think both of them collapsed at the same time, and that collapse was related. There’s that old phrase that “nature abhors a vacuum,” and that it’s not that religion disappears, it’s that the religion changes.

And the substitute religion in Ireland is the politically-correct, woke religion. And Ireland has become an extreme carrier of this new woke political-correctness and they have gone over the top and beyond any normal state to show the world that the political class in Ireland are post-Catholic, as they call it, or anti-Catholic as they are. And they’re politically correct. They reject not only the Church, but also the whole thing of nationality and national sovereignty, national pride has all decreased.

For example, at the moment, not only have religious vocations gone down, but there has also been a steep decline in the rate of marriage and also a very steep decline in birthrate. In the 1970s, the average woman had four children, and now it’s less than 1.5 children per woman. So the birth rate has gone down, marriage rates have gone down, vocations have gone down.

And the only thing that has gone up really is this encouragement by the uniparty — which is the political class, media class, NGO class in Ireland, they’re all pro E.U. Like the kingdom of God in belief and seeking. “Seek ye first.” The Kingdom of God has gone down, and it’s now been replaced by an unquestioning belief in anything and everything that emanates from Brussels.

So it’s no longer “home rule,” it’s now “Brussels rule.” And with that is this E.U. They’re all looking to be good Europeans, compliant, docile. Ireland has become the most docile, ridiculously subservient country within the European Union. According to polls, it’s one of the most pro-E.U. countries in Europe. While much of Eastern Europe is starting to turn very Eurosceptic, Ireland continues to be — because the media and political class are completely pro-woke.

It’s like the new religion. You have the woke religion and they have Brussels rather than home rule. And the Irish have taken this new religion, this substitute religion, very, very close to their heart. So they love the E.U. and this woke religion.

But it’s really, really extreme. Like the government wanted to introduce legislation against free speech, they wanted to introduce legislation in 2015, virtually without comment; in quick succession, it passed the legalization of gay marriage, and it has passed the legalization of abortion — of young, innocent, defenseless children in the womb. It has the Gender Recognition Act. People can decide themselves and declare their gender.

Some government ministers say there are nine genders, some people say there are more. This kind of thrust towards this gender ideology and intersectional ideology, and with it the rejection of natural law and biology. So the ideology has become a substitute for belief in biology, and where previously was divine law, natural law, that’s all been rejected, and it’s whatever is fashionable and whatever’s trendy.

And that’s a very dangerous foundation. In parts of Ireland it seems to be all about the small, weird, this whole trans agenda now, which was — five years ago, was unheard of and almost unthinkable. Now you’re supposed to be accepted without question. This new substitute religion has taken hold in Ireland and it’s very woke. It’s very pro-E.U and it’s very anti-nationalist and it’s very pro-mass-immigration. As I said earlier, nature abhors a vacuum.

All these epicenters where these migrants are kept, the vast majority are economic migrants here for the feast, giving out at the behest of the government — funnily enough, that they have been housed, a lot of them, in convents and monasteries and religious houses that have been shut, no longer functioning, and they’ve been taken over by the state.

Polls show that in regards to religious faith and religious culture, it’s use it or lose it. But because religion is the basis and has been the basis of Irish culture for a millennia and a half, once that goes down, well, all of society, Irish society also go goes down. Not only is there a loss of belief in God, but there’s also a belief in Irish people themselves that — maybe they don’t believe that God loves them anymore or God is interested in them. and they don’t feel any love or interest in themselves or pride in themselves.

And now we are supposed to believe that everything is good, everything is better. Except our religion, our culture, our music, our dance, our national sovereignty. So this loss of faith and loss of practice of Christian faith has had huge consequences, much more, much deeper than purely religious vocations. It has undermined greatly this idea of pride and confidence in Irish culture itself.

TAS: You’ve mentioned the political class and some social maladies as well. This is something that maybe neither of us can answer without conducting an honest survey first, but what kind of connection do you see between the state of society and the state of faith? Do you think that as society degenerates, faith has waned? Or do you think that society has been permitted to degenerate because faith has waned?

HK: Well, I think that it was Leo, one of the popes, said that as man believes, so does he act. Because will follows knowledge and belief. As a man believes, so does he act? No, not in every case, but in most cases. So that socially, across society, you can see a pattern of high religious faith as is correlates and causes, I would say, at least a society attempting to be more virtuous, attempting to be more kind, charitable, forgiving, just, all these things.

And when religious faith, static faith collapses — especially in a place like Ireland where there was no substitute, like kind of civil, there’s no great philosophical tradition beyond that of the philosophy encouraged by the Church of Thomas Aquinas and the Western tradition — but there was no great kind of civic philosophers. Ireland’s cultural foundation was a religious one, and there was Gaelic language and Gaelic games and music and dance, etc. on top of that.

When the religious hierarchy and the Church, its confidence in itself and the people’s confidence in it as well, once that went down, there was no kind of civil or even lay-led philosophical tradition to stabilize the ship of state, so to speak. Once the hierarchy of the Church kind of said, “Okay, we’re off. We’re taking the ball and we’re going off. You do as you like,” that void in society was filled by the most, in many cases, most irrational, woke, politically-correct, crazy ideas.

It’s also left a political, a cultural elite in Ireland: as I call them, the uniparty, the political-media-NGO class that are not only not Christian, but they’re actually anti-Christian and they’re actively aggressive for secularism in Ireland. A bit like as we had also in, in the Netherlands and Quebec after Vatican II.

So when the bishops say, “No, no, the Catholic church won’t be the only religion or basis of society and we’ll go quiet,” and people say, “Okay, well off you go then, off you go, and you’re not getting back in.” It brings up the whole importance of the Church and the Christian order of society. Like, be proud and say, “No, we want Christian order in society and we’re not going to be some part to be recognized, like some football team or unions or ‘Tidy Towns’ Association,” and the Catholic Church just to be seen as one little kind of interest group, among many others.

A lot of damage in the Catholic Church is completely self-inflicted. Completely self-inflicted. Many laypeople were kind of completely nonplussed. Like we just had a referendum here which tried to remove the words “mother” and “woman” from the Irish Constitution. And the Church said virtually nothing.

That campaign was made by a small number of people who made the defense of the importance of family and woman, those words in the Constitution. And the Church is very quiet on it. So it’s funny that lay organizations and even lay political organizations like the Irish Freedom Party, for example — we would regard ourselves as socially conservative, economically liberal, nationalist and sovereigntist, Eurosceptic — that we and other parties like ourselves are leading the fight back, while the Church is basically silent.

But the good news is that there is taking place in Ireland, because people have become upset and tired of watching their country being washed down the river, that now they see that they must stand up themselves to defend the values of a functioning society and to stand up for Irish self-determination.

Democratic self-determination, and often Irish national sovereignty, stand up for the family, to proudly say that we are pro-life, we are pro-family, and for the first time in, I think, a long number of decades, a self-consciously ideological opposition to the liberal — so-called liberal agenda, even though they’re the most authoritarian sects that you will ever come across. But this woke agenda, political correctness, that we are self-consciously an ideological opposition to that which hasn’t been around in Ireland for quite a long time.

TAS: On a final note, what kind of advice or encouragement would you give to Catholics, whether in Ireland or in the United States, who are really seeking to preserve and further Christian society, as you put it?

HK: A number of things. Like we need to return to stability and the tradition of the Church, which includes the Traditional Latin Mass. I would suggest people look at homeschooling where there is a lack of traditional Christian education in their area, like a good Catholic school, and homeschool.

Also immerse themselves in the beauty of their Christian and national culture, be proud to engender and cultivate pride and knowledge and practice of their own national culture. Revive again the study of philosophy and knowledge of theology, knowledge of the liturgy. But in real terms, support and devoting more time to the importance of family and faith and Church.

But also it’s not just to be hanging around the church, it’s getting out in wider society and it’s to effect Christian impact on the society in which they live and not to be hanging around. Some people think that to be Catholic means to be hanging around the church sacristy. It doesn’t. It’s the very opposite. Leave that stuff to the priests and stuff like that there. It’s for laypeople to get out there and impact, politically and culturally, the society in which they live. And that’s their job — not to be hanging around the sacristy all the time.

TAS: Thank you again for your time and insights, Hermann. God bless.

READ MORE from S.A. McCarthy:

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