Benghazi: How it Came Down According to Clinton and Gates

Libya: The Italians supplanted the Ottoman Turks in the area around Tripoli in 1911 and did not relinquish their hold until 1943 when defeated in World War II. Libya then passed to UN administration and achieved independence in 1951. Following a 1969 military coup, Col. Muammar Abu Minyar al-QADHAFI began to espouse his own political system, the Third Universal Theory. The system was a combination of socialism and Islam derived in part from tribal practices and was supposed to be implemented by the Libyan people themselves in a unique form of “direct democracy.” QADHAFI used oil funds during the 1970s and 1980s to promote his ideology outside Libya, supporting subversives and terrorists abroad to hasten the end of Marxism and capitalism. In addition, beginning in 1973, he engaged in military operations in northern Chad’s Aozou Strip – to gain access to minerals and to use as a base of influence in Chadian politics – but was forced to retreat in 1987. UN sanctions in 1992 isolated QADHAFI politically. NATO

Ghadafi was killed 2011 during the Battle of Sirte in October after U.S. Via NATO intervened earlier that year.

Approximately 8,000 troops were deployed. The offensive also included:

Over 260 air assets (fighter aircraft, surveillance and reconnaissance aircraft, air-to-air refuellers, unmanned aerial vehicles and attack helicopters).

21 naval assets (supply ships, frigates, destroyers, submarines, amphibious assault ships and aircraft carriers).

Over 26,500 sorties, including over 9,700 strike sorties*
*Strike sorties are intended to identify and engage appropriate targets, but do not necessarily deploy munitions each time.

Destroyed over 5,900 military targets including over 400 artillery or rocket launchers and over 600 tanks or armored vehicles.

Covered a maritime surveillance area of around 61,000 nautical square miles.

Over 3,100 vessels have been hailed.

Around 300 vessels were boarded. NATO

Fast Forward 2012, Sept U.S. Ambassador to Libya J. Christopher Stevens, Foreign Service information management officer Sean Smith, and security officers Tyrone S. Woods and Glen A. Doherty were killed in an attack on the U.S. Embassy.

DOD REPORT shortly after the attack:

Official Details Benghazi Attack, Vows to Support LibyaA senior government official revealed details of the deadly attack on the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi, Libya, September 11, 2012, that killed four State Department officials and wounded three others.<br />By CHERYL PELLERIN, American Forces Press Service WASHINGTON, D.C. Sep 13, 2012

A senior government official revealed details of the deadly attack on the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi, Libya, September 11, 2012, that killed four State Department officials and wounded three others.

During a teleconference given on background to reporters, the official described the scene of an attack whose elements are unclear or unknown but that killed U.S. Ambassador J. Christopher Stevens, Foreign Service information management officer Sean Smith and two others whose names are being withheld until State Department officials notify their families. Three other Americans were wounded in the attack.

All Benghazi consulate personnel have been evacuated to the U.S. Embassy in Tripoli in a series of flights that included the three wounded personnel and the remains of the fallen State Department officials, the official said.

The Benghazi consulate staff will be transported to Germany, she said.

“The staff that is well is going to stay in Europe on standby while we assess the security situation,” she said. “The wounded will be treated [at the Landstuhl Regional Medical Center] in Germany, and the remains will come home.”

In the meantime, the official said, “we have taken our embassy in Tripoli down to emergency staffing levels and … we have requested increased support from the Libyans while we assess the security situation.”

Last night, she said, State Department officials ordered all diplomatic posts around the world to review their security posture and to take all necessary steps to enhance that posture.

During the briefing, warning that details may change as the attack is investigated, the official offered a timeline of events surrounding the attack.

The consulate in Benghazi is an interim facility acquired before the fall of Libyan dictator Muammar Qadhafi. It consists of a main building, several ancillary buildings, and an annex a little further away, she said.

“At about 4 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time yesterday, which was about 10 p.m. in Libya, the compound … in Benghazi began taking fire from unidentified Libyan extremists. By about 4:15 p.m. attackers gained access to the compound and began firing into the main building, setting it on fire,” she said, “and the Libyan guard force and mission security personnel responded.”

At the time, three people were inside the building — Ambassador Stevens, a regional security officer, and Smith — and while trying to evacuate they became separated by heavy, dark smoke.

“The regional security officer made it outside and then he and other security personnel returned into the burning building in an attempt to rescue Chris and Sean,” the official said.

They found Smith, who had died, and pulled him from the building. They were unable to locate Stevens before fire, smoke and small-arms fire drove them from the building, the official said.

“At about 4:45 p.m. Washington time, U.S. security personnel assigned to the mission annex tried to regain the main building but that group also took heavy fire and had to return to the mission annex,” the official said.

“At about 5:20 p.m.,” she added, “Libyan security personnel made another attempt and that time were able to regain and secure the main building.”

The rest of the staff were evacuated to the nearby annex, which itself came under fire at around 6 p.m. Washington time and continued under fire for about two hours, she said.

During that ongoing attack, the official said, two more U.S. personnel were killed and two more were wounded.

At about 8:30 p.m. Washington time, or 2 a.m. in Libya, Libyan security forces helped regain control of the situation, she said.

“At some point in all of this, and frankly we do not know when, we believe that Ambassador Stevens got out of the building and was taken to a hospital in Benghazi,” she said, adding, “We do not have any information about his condition at that time. His body was later returned to U.S. personnel at the Benghazi airport.”

The official said Stevens made regular and frequent trips to Benghazi to check on developments in the east.

“He had been the secretary’s and the president’s representative to the Transitional National Council before the fall of Gadhafi and had spent a lot of time in Benghazi and built deep contacts there,” she explained. “So this was one of his regular visits.”

She said security in Benghazi included a local guard force outside the compound, “which is similar to the way we are postured all over the world. We had a physical perimeter barrier and … a robust American security presence inside the compound, including a strong component of regional security officers.”

About the protests, the official said, “We frankly don’t have a full picture of what may have been going on outside the compound walls before the firing began [and] … we are not in a position to speak any further to the perpetrators of this attack.”

The complex attack will require a full investigation, she added.

“We are committed to working with the Libyans both on the investigation and to ensure that we bring the perpetrators to justice,” the official said. “The FBI is already committed to assisting in that but it’s just too early to speak to who [the attackers] were and if they might have been otherwise affiliated beyond Libya.”

As Clinton said very clearly today, the official added, “We are as committed today as we have ever been to a free and stable Libya that is still in America’s interest, and we are going to continue to work very strongly to help them have the future that they want and they deserve.”

She added, “I would simply note how quickly and how strongly senior members of the Libyan government came forward to condemn this attack, to offer support to us.

She noted that the consulate’s Libyan security forces stood with U.S. security forces in defending the consulate buildings.

“One of the local militias that was friendly to the embassy came to assist as well,” the official added, “and I think that really speaks to the relationship that we have built with Libya.”

Also here this afternoon, Libyan ambassador to the United States Ali Suleiman Aujali held a press conference to condemn the attack on the Benghazi consulate and the deaths of embassy personnel.

“It is a sad day in my life. I knew Chris personally. He’s my tennis partner. He comes to my house. We have breakfast together. I’ve known him for more than six years. He may be the first American diplomat to [have arrived] in Tripoli … after the revolution. He’s very welcomed by the people. He visited the Libyans. He [ate] with them. He [sat] with them,” Aujali said.

Clinton, Gates Talk to the Press

Secretary Hillary Rodham Clinton and Defense Secretary Robert Gates appeared on NBC’s “Meet the Press,” ABC News’ “This Week” and CBS’ “Face the Nation” March 27, 2011, to discuss U.S. intervention in Libya. The following includes transcripts from each of the events. NBC “Meet the Press” Q:

Secretary Clinton, Secretary Gates, welcome back to “Meet the Press.” SEC. GATES: Thank you. Q: The President said this is an operation that would take days, not weeks. We are now into the second week. Has the mission been accomplished?

SEC. GATES: I think that the no-fly zone aspect of the mission has been accomplished. We have not seen any of his planes fly since the mission started. We have suppressed his air defenses. I think we’ve also been successful on the humanitarian side. We have prevented his forces from going to Benghazi and we have taken out a good bit of his armor. So I think we have, to a very large extent, completed the military mission in terms of getting it set up. Now, the no-fly zone and even the humanitarian side will have to be sustained for some period of time. Q: Is Qadhafi capable of routing the rebels? SEC. CLINTON: At this point, it appears that his efforts have been stopped. I think if you were to look at where we were just a couple of weeks ago, he was clearly on his way to Benghazi. He was intending, by his own words, to show no mercy, to go house to house. I think we prevented a great humanitarian disaster, which is always hard to point to something that didn’t happen, but I believe we did. And now we’re beginning to see — because of the good work of the coalition — to see his troops begin to turn back towards the west and to see the opposition begin to reclaim ground they had lost. Q: That said, Secretary Gates, would the U.S. supply arms to the rebels? SEC. GATES: No decision has been made about that at this point. The Security Council resolution would permit it. The second resolution, 1973, would permit it. But no decisions have been made by our government about it. Q: But does this Administration want to see the rebels prevail and overtake Qadhafi? SEC. GATES: I think the President’s policy is that it’s time for Qadhafi to go. That’s not part of our military mission, which has been very limited and very strictly defined. Q: Well, so how is that going to happen? Secretary Clinton, you said this week that you thought you were picking up signals that he wanted to get out, of his own accord. SEC. CLINTON: Well, David, there are many different aspects to the strategy that the international community is pursuing. As Bob has said, the military mission has gone very well. It only started just, like, eight days ago, so it has been remarkably well coordinated and focused, and now NATO will take command and control over it. At the same time, we are pursuing really strict economic sanctions on him and people close to him. We have a political effort underway. The African Union just called for a transition to democracy. The Arab League, the others of us who are supporting this endeavor are going to be meeting in London on Tuesday to begin to focus on how we’re going to help facilitate such a transition of him leaving power. Q: All right. But you said this week you thought there were indications he was looking to get out. Is that true? SEC. CLINTON: Well, people around him. We have a lot of evidence that people around him are reaching out. Now, so far what they’ve been doing is to say you’re misunderstanding us; you don’t appreciate what we’re doing; come and talk to us. Well, the Secretary General of the United Nations has appointed a former Jordanian foreign minister as a special envoy. He will be going to both Benghazi and Tripoli in the next few days so that we will provide a very clear message to Qadhafi. But we’re also sending a message to people around him: Do you really want to be a pariah? Do you really want to end up in the International Criminal Court? Now is your time to get out of this and to help the change the direction. Q: Bottom line: The President wants him to go, but the President will not take him out himself.
SEC. GATES: Certainly not militarily. Q: So it would have to be other means? SEC. GATES: Yes. Q: And — SEC. GATES: And as I’ve said, we have things in our toolbox in addition to hammers. Secretary Clinton’s just talked about a number of them. And don’t underestimate what Hillary just said of the people around him looking at what’s happening and the international view of this place and when’s the time to turn and go to the other side. Q: Let me — SEC. GATES: And so I think one should not underestimate the possibility of the regime itself cracking. Q: I want to talk about some of the Congressional criticisms. Speaker of the House Boehner issued a letter with questions, some of which were deemed illegitimate questions by the White House. Here’s a portion of it. I’ll put it up on the screen. “Because of the conflicting messages from the Administration and our coalition partners,” he wrote, “there’s a lack of clarity over the objectives of this mission, what our national security interests are, how it fits into our overarching policy for the Middle East.” The American people deserve answers to these questions, and all of these concerns point to a fundamental Q: What is your benchmark for success in Libya? SEC. CLINTON: Well, I think it’s perfectly legitimate for members of Congress and the public to ask questions. The President is going to address the nation Monday night. A lot of these questions will be answered. But I would just make a couple of points. First, on March 1st, the United States Senate passed a resolution calling for a no-fly zone. That was a bipartisan resolution. There were a number of people in the House, including leadership in both the Republican and Democratic parties, who were demanding that action be taken. The international community came together, and in an unprecedented action, the Arab League called on the Security Council to do exactly what the Security Council ended up doing. Now, the United States and other countries were in a position to be able to act to enforce it. If you look at the coverage on Al Jazeera, if you listen to the statements that are being put out by the opposition in Libya, there is a great deal of appreciation for what we and others have done in order to stop Qadhafi on his mission of merciless oppression. So, this was an international effort that the United States was a part of. I certainly believe it was within the President’s constitutional authority to do so. It is going according to the plan that the President laid out. The United States will be transitioning to a NATO command and control. And then we will be joining with the rest of the international community. And if you look at the region — can you imagine, David, if we were sitting here and Qadhafi had gotten to Benghazi, and in a city of 700,000 people, had massacred tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands had fled over the border, destabilizing Egypt? Everybody would be saying, “Why didn’t the President do something?” Q: Can I ask you about Boehner himself?
SEC. CLINTON: These are difficult choices. Q: Did Speaker Boehner raise any objections when he was briefed prior to the mission? SEC. CLINTON: Well, I know that there was a constant flow of information, both to members and staff. And of course, the President had a conference with some members in person, others — many others, including the Speaker, on the phone — but we have no objection to anybody asking questions. But I think it’s important to look at the context in which this is occurring, and the fact that we have moved so rapidly to have this kind of international action taken answers, in great measure, the legitimate concerns of the people of Libya. And now, of course, we’re going to take it day by day. That’s what you do in a situation like this. Q: The military is stretched pretty thin. Look at this map to show what our commitments are around the globe. In Iraq, of course, we have 47,000 troops; in Afghanistan, a hundred thousand strong; and now this additional commitment of U.S. troops — I mean, not troops, but U.S. assets in Libya. How does the President, speaking to the nation Monday night, maintain a sense of national purpose here at a time when we’re so stretched?
SEC. GATES: Actually, your list was incomplete. We have a substantial military commitment in humanitarian assistance disaster relief in Japan as well, largely using naval forces. The air forces that we are using, for the most part, and the air forces in particular that we are using in Libya are forces normally stationed in Europe in any event. The reality is, though, beginning this week or within the next week or so, we will begin to diminish the commitment of resources that we have committed to this. We knew the President’s plan at the beginning was we would go in heavy at first, because we had the capacity to do it in terms of suppressing the air defenses and so on. But then the idea was that, over time, the coalition would assume a larger and larger proportion of the burden. This was the conversation he had with foreign leaders when this whole thing was coming together. And so we see our commitment of resources actually beginning to decline. Q: Well, how long does the no-fly zone last? Weeks or longer? SEC. GATES: Well, once the air — first of all, nobody knows the answer to that question. But once the air defenses have been suppressed, what it takes to sustain the no-fly zone is substantially less than what it takes to establish it. Q: Let me ask this question, though, still on the military — and then I want your comment, as well: What if things don’t go as planned? What is our contingency planning? What is the U.S. commitment if things get worse in Libya, if Qadhafi stays, if there is an entrenched civil war, if it devolves into Somalia-like chaos? What then? What’s our commitment?
SEC. GATES: Well, the President has made very clear there will be no American troops on the ground in Libya. He’s made that quite definite. Our air power has significantly degraded his armor capabilities, his ability to use his armor against cities like Benghazi. We see them beginning to move back to the west, retreating. So, this eventually is going to have to be settled by the Libyans themselves. Perhaps the UN can mediate or whatever. But in terms of the military commitment, the President has put some very strict limitations in terms of what we are prepared to do. Q: I want to ask you, Secretary Clinton, if I can, about the rest of the region, because there’s so much else that is happening, and I want to go to the map and go through these in turn. First, as we look at the Broader Middle East, we look at Syria — deadly protests because of a government crackdown that have been occurring over the past few days. Is it the position of the government that we would like to see the Asad regime fall?
SEC. CLINTON: What we have said is what we’ve said throughout this extraordinary period of transformation in North Africa and the Middle East. We want to see no violence, we want to see peaceful protest that enables people to express their universal human rights, and we want to see economic and political reform. That’s what we’ve called on in Syria, that’s what we’ve called on other governments across the region to do. Q: What about Saudi Arabia? We go back to the map, as Secretary Gates — the King is quite upset with the President. The relationship has ruptured to the point that he has sent troops into Bahrain, he would not see both of you when you were in the region. What are we doing to fix a ruptured relationship with perhaps our most important partner in the region when it comes to oil as well as other matters? SEC. GATES: Well, first of all, I don’t believe the relationship is ruptured. We have a very strong relationship with Saudi Arabia. I think that the Saudis see all of this turbulence in the region with some disquiet. They’re very concerned about Iran. They believe that Iran will be able to take advantage of the situation in various of these countries, and those are their concerns, and we share some of those concerns. But I think it’s a great exaggeration to say this relationship’s ruptured. I intend to visit the region in the near term and hope and intend to see the King. So I think we have a very strong relationship, we have a very strong military-to-military relationship. As you know, the Saudis just made one of the largest purchases of American weapons in their history, so I think it’s overdrawn. Do we have some differences of view? Absolutely. But that’s — friends happen — that happens between friends all the time. Q: Back to the map. In addition to Yemen, I want to actually focus on Egypt, still the strategic cornerstone. Yemen, of course important, but it is in Egypt that is a strategic cornerstone of this region. What are we doing, Secretary Clinton, at this point, to try to assist the young secular movement that wants to find a way toward leadership that may be outmanned now by the Muslim Brotherhood and Mubarak’s own party? SEC. CLINTON: Well, David, first, we have historically done quite a bit in reaching out to the very young people you’re referring to. When I was just in Egypt, I met with a number of those who had been leaders of the activities in Tahrir Square and that were helping to translate that protest into political action. A lot of them had been in American Government-sponsored programs, they had been on visitation programs to the United States. And we are continuing to reach out and work with them and to try to provide support to them. It is hard moving from being in the forefront of a movement to being part of a political process. It’s hard in any country. But we’re going to stand with them and make sure that at least insofar as we’re able to, they get the support they need. At the same time, though, we’re also working with the interim government in Egypt. Both Bob and I, when we were recently in Egypt, met with government officials and met with the military officials who are, for the time being, running the government. We want to assist them on the economic reform efforts that they’re undertaking. Now ultimately, this is up to the Egyptians. They’re going to have to make these decisions. But we’ve offered our advice and we’re offering aid where appropriate. Q: Secretary Gates, is Libya in our vital interest as a country?
SEC. GATES: No, I don’t think it’s a vital interest for the United States, but we clearly have interests there, and it’s a part of the region which is a vital interest for the United States. Q: I think a lot of people would hear that and say, “Well, that’s quite striking, not in our vital interests, and yet we’re committing military resources to it.”
SEC. CLINTON: Well, but then it wouldn’t be fair as to what Bob just said. I mean, did Libya attack us? No, they did not attack us. Do they have a very critical role in this region and do they neighbor two countries? You just mentioned one, Egypt, the other Tunisia, that are going through these extraordinary transformations and cannot afford to be destabilized by conflict on their borders. Yes. Do they have a major influence on what goes on in Europe because of everything from oil to immigration? And David, that raises a very important point because you showed on the map just a minute ago Afghanistan. We asked our allies, our NATO allies, to go into Afghanistan with us 10 years ago. They have been there and a lot of them have been there despite the fact they were not attacked; the attack came on us as we all tragically remember. They stuck with us. When it comes to Libya, we started hearing from the UK, France, Italy, other of our NATO allies. This was in their vital national interests. The UK and France were the ones who went to the Security Council and said, “We have to act, because otherwise we’re seeing a really violent upheaval with a man who has a history of unpredictable violent acts right on our doorstep.” So let’s be fair here. They didn’t attack us, but what they were doing and Qadhafi’s history and the potential for the disruption and instability was very much in our interests, as Bob said, and seen by our European friends and our Arab partners as very vital to their interests. Q: Before you go, Secretary Clinton, I want to change the topic. A dear friend and supporter of yours, Geraldine Ferraro, has passed away unfortunately. And she was on this program back in 1984 when she was named onto the ticket to the presidency with Walter Mondale, and — the first woman, of course. And she was asked a question by Marvin Kalb at the time, and I want to show you that exchange and get you to react to it. Mr. KALB: Ms. Ferraro, could you push the nuclear button? MS. FERRARO: I can do whatever is necessary in order to protect the security of this country. Mr. KALB: Including that? MS. FERRARO: Yeah, even if it’s politically improper. Mr. KALB: And if you weren’t a woman, do you think you’d have been selected? MS. FERRARO: That’s a double-edged sword so that — I don’t know. I don’t know, if I were not a woman, if I would be judged in the same way on my candidacy, whether or not I would be asked questions like, “Are you strong enough to push the button,” or that type —

Q: How times have changed. She changed them and you, of course, changed them too for women in politics. What’s your reaction to seeing that and your reaction to her death?

SEC. CLINTON: It just makes me smile because she was an extraordinary pioneer, she was a path-breaker, she was everything that — now the commentators will say an icon, a legend. But she was down to earth, she was just as personal a friend as you could have, she was one of my fiercest defenders and most staunch supporters, she had a great family that she cherished and stood up for in every way. And she went before many women to a political height that is very, very difficult still, and she navigated it with great grace and grit, and I think we owe her a lot. And I’ll certainly think about her every day, and thanks for asking me to reflect on it briefly, because she was a wonderful person. Q: Thank you both very much. SEC. CLINTON: Thank you.
SEC. GATES: Yeah. Q: Appreciate it. ABC News “This Week” Q: And joining me now in their first interview since the attacks on Libya began, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Defense Secretary Robert Gates. Madam and Mr. Secretary, thanks so much for joining us. I’ll start with you, Secretary Gates. The mission is a no-fly zone and civilian protection, but does not include removing Gadhafi from power, even though regime change is stated U.S. policy. So why not have, as part of the mission, regime change, removing Gadhafi from power? SEC. GATES: Well, first of all, I think you don’t want ever to set a set of goals or a mission — military mission where you can’t be confident of accomplishing your objectives. And as we have seen in the past, regime change is a very complicated business. It sometimes takes a long time. Sometimes it can happen very fast, but it was never part of the military mission. Q: NATO has assumed command and control for the no-fly zone, or is this weekend, but not yet for the civilian protection. When do we anticipate that happening?

SEC. GATES: I think Hillary’s been more engaged with that diplomacy than I have.
SEC. CLINTON: Well, we hope, Jake, that NATO, which is making the military planning for the civilian protection mission, will meet in the next few days, make a decision, which we expect to be positive, to include that mission, and then just as the arms embargo and the no-fly zone has been transitioned to NATO command and control, the civilian protection mission will as well. Q: What do you say to the people in Ivory Coast or Syria who say, “Where’s our no-fly zone? We’re being killed by our government too.”

SEC. CLINTON: Well, there’s not an aircraft — there’s not an air force being used. There is not the same level of force. The situation is significantly different enough that the world has not come together. However, in Ivory Coast, we have a U.N. peacekeeping force which we are supporting. We’re beginning to see the world coalesce around the very obvious fact that Mr. Gbagbo no longer is president. Mr. Ouattara is the president. So each of these situations is different, but in Libya, when a leader says spare nothing, show no mercy and calls out air force attacks on his own people, that crosses a line that people in the world had decided they could not tolerate. Q: When do we know that the mission is done? The no-fly zone has succeeded, civilian protection has stopped. When do you — when —

SEC. GATES: I would say, for all practical purposes, the implementation of the no-fly zone is complete. Now it will need to be sustained, but it can be sustained with a lot less effort than what it took to set it up. As I indicated in my testimony on the Hill, you don’t establish a no-fly zone by just declaring it. You go in and suppress the air defenses, and that mission is largely complete. I think we have made a lot of progress on the humanitarian side and his ability to move armor, to move toward a Benghazi or a place like that has pretty well been eliminated. Now we’ll have to keep our eye on it because he still has ground forces at his beck and call. But the reality is they’re under a lot of pressure. Their logistics — there are some signs that they’re moving back to the west away from Ajdabiya and other places. So I think that we have prevented the large-scale slaughter that was beginning to take place, has taken place in some places. And so I think that we are at a point where the establishment of the no-fly zone and the protection of cities from the kind of wholesale military assault that we have seen, certainly in the east, has been accomplished and now we can move to sustainment.
SEC. CLINTON: Jake, I would just add two points to what Secretary Gates said. The United States Senate called for a no-fly zone in a resolution that it passed, I think, on March the 1st, and that mission is on the brink of having been accomplished. And there was a lot of congressional support to do something. There is no perfect option when one is looking at a situation like this. I think that the President ordered the best available option. The United States worked with the international community to make sure that there was authorization to do what we have helped to accomplish. But what is quite remarkable here is that NATO assuming the responsibility for the entire mission means that the United States will move to a supporting role. Just as our allies are helping us in Afghanistan where we bear the disproportionate amount of the sacrifice and the cost, we are supporting a mission through NATO that was very much initiated by European requests joined by Arab requests. I think this is a watershed moment in international decision making. We learned a lot in the 1990s. We saw what happened in Rwanda. It took a long time in the Balkans, in Kosovo to deal with a tyrant. But I think — and what has happened since March 1st — and we’re not even done with the month — demonstrates really remarkable leadership.

SEC. GATES: I would just add one other thing, in sort of a concrete manifestation where we are in this, and that is we and the Department of Defense are already beginning to do our planning in terms of beginning to draw down resources, first from support of the no-fly zone and then from the humanitarian mission. Now that may not start in the next day or two, but I certainly expect it to in the very near future. Q: Well, and I wanted to follow on that. How long are we going to be there in that support role? SEC. GATES: Well, I think the — as I say, we will begin diminishing the level of our engagement, the level of resources we have involved in this, but as long as there is a no-fly zone and we have some unique capabilities to bring to bear — for example, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance, some tanking ability — we will continue to have a presence. But a lot of these — a lot of the forces that we will have available other than the ISR — are forces that are already assigned to Europe or have been assigned to Italy or are at sea in the Mediterranean. Q: I’ve heard NATO say that this — that they anticipate — that some NATO officials say this could be three months, but people in the Pentagon think it could be far longer than that. Do you think we’ll be gone by the end of the year? Will the mission be over by the end of the year? SEC. GATES: I don’t think anybody knows the answer to that. Q: Do you think Libya posed an actual or imminent threat to the United States? SEC. GATES: No, no. It was not a vital national interest to the United States, but it was an interest and it was an interest for all of the reasons Secretary Clinton talked about — the engagement of the Arabs, the engagement of the Europeans, the general humanitarian question that was at stake. There was another piece of this, though, that certainly was a consideration. You’ve had revolutions on both the east and the west of Libya. They’re fragile. Q: Egypt and Tunisia. SEC. GATES: Egypt and Tunisia. So you had a potentially significantly destabilizing event taking place in Libya that put at risk, potentially, the revolutions in both Tunisia and Egypt. And that was another consideration I think we took into account.

SEC. CLINTON: Jake, but — Q: Secretary Clinton, how does — SEC. CLINTON: Jake, I just want to add too, because I know that there’s been a lot of questions, and those questions deserve to be asked and answered. The President is going to address the nation on Monday night. Imagine we were sitting here and Benghazi had been overrun, a city of 700,000 people, and tens of thousands of people had been slaughtered, hundreds of thousands had fled and, as Bob said, either with nowhere to go or overwhelming Egypt while it’s in its own difficult transition, and we were sitting here. The cries would be, “Why did the United States not do anything? Why — how could you stand by when France and the United Kingdom and other Europeans and the Arab League and your Arab partners were saying you’ve got to do something?” So every decision that we make is going to have pluses and minuses. Q: You heard the Secretary of Defense say that Libya did not pose an actual or imminent threat to the nation, and bearing in mind what you just said, I’m still wondering how the Administration reconciles the attack without congressional approval with then-candidate Obama saying in 2007 the President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation and, as a senator, you yourself in 2007 said this about President Bush.

SENATOR CLINTON: If the administration believes that any — any use of force against Iran is necessary, the president must come to Congress to seek that authority. Q: Why not go to Congress? SEC. CLINTON: Well, we would welcome congressional support, but I don’t think that this kind of internationally authorized intervention where we are one of a number of countries participating to enforce a humanitarian mission is the kind of unilateral action that either I or President Obama were speaking of several years ago. I think that this had a limited timeframe, a very clearly defined mission, which we are in the process of fulfilling. Q: I want to get to a couple other topics before you guys go, and one of them is in Yemen. President Saleh, a crucial ally in counterterrorism, seems quite on his way out. Secretary Gates, you said this week we have not done any post-Saleh planning. How dangerous is a post-Saleh world, a post-Saleh Yemen, to the United States? SEC. GATES: Well, I think it is a real concern, because the most active and, at this point, perhaps the most aggressive branch of al Qaeda — al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula — operates out of Yemen. And we have had a lot of counterterrorism cooperation from President Saleh and Yemeni security services. So if that government collapses or is replaced by one that is dramatically more weak, then I think we’ll face some additional challenges out of Yemen. There’s no question about it. It’s a real problem. Q: Secretary Clinton, on Pakistan, Pakistan has been trying to block U.S. counterterrorism efforts in the FATA region, it continues to work with terrorists to attack India, it held a U.S. diplomat in its prisons for several weeks, as I don’t need to tell you. Has this relationship gotten worse in the last six months, U.S.-Pakistan?

SEC. CLINTON: Well, Jake, it’s a very challenging relationship because there have been some problems. We were very appreciative of getting our diplomat out of Pakistan, and that took cooperation by the Government of Pakistan. We have cooperated very closely together in going after terrorists who pose a threat to both us and to the Pakistanis themselves. But it’s a very difficult relationship because Pakistan is in a hard position trying to figure out how it’s going to contend with its own internal extremist threat. But I think on the other hand, we’ve also developed good lines of communication, good opportunities for cooperation, but it’s something we have to work on every day. Q: And finally, we’ve talked a bit about the end of this operation, how it ends. I’m wondering if you can envision the United States supporting a plan where Gadhafi is exiled. Would the U.S. be willing to support safe haven, immunity from prosecution, and access to funds as a way to end this conflict?

SEC. CLINTON: Well, Jake, we are nowhere near that kind of negotiation. I’ll be going to London on Tuesday for a conference that the British Government is hosting. There will be a number of countries, not only those participating in the enforcement of the resolution, but also those who are pursuing political and other interventions. And the United Nations has a special envoy who will also be actively working with Gadhafi and those around him. We have sent a clear message that it is time for him to transition out of power. The African Union has now called for a democratic transition. We think that there will be developments along that line in the weeks and months ahead, but I can’t, sitting here today, predict to you exactly how it’s going to play out. But we believe that Libya will have a better shot in the future if he departs and leaves power. Q: All right. Secretary Clinton, Secretary Gates, thank you so much for joining us. SEC. CLINTON: Thank you. CBS “Face the Nation” BOB SCHIEFFER: Today on “Face the Nation,” rebel forces in Libya retake a town with the help of coalition bombers. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates are in our studio to talk about it, and we’ll get the latest from the Liz Palmer in Tripoli as the unrest continues across the Arab world. It’s all next on “Face the Nation.” ANNOUNCER: “Face the Nation” with CBS News chief Washington correspondent, Bob Schieffer. And now, from Washington, Bob Schieffer. And here is the latest. Overnight, rebel forces are on the move again in Libya, and there has been new violence in Syria. In Libya, rebel forces backed by coalition warplanes took back the key oil towns of Brega and Ras Lanuf. The Gadhafi forces acknowledge that the bombers had forced its troops to retreat. In Syria, the government says 12 people were killed, more than 200 wounded as protests and demonstrations spread across that country. In Yemen, demonstrators who want their ruler to step down threw shoes as the unrest continued to build there.

For more on all of this, we go to our Liz Palmer in Tripoli. Bring us up to speed, Liz. ELIZABETH PALMER, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, let’s begin in Yemen where the beleaguered president, Ali Abdullah Saleh, has been unable to quash the demonstrations. He’s now been forced to say, OK, I’ll go within hours if necessary, but I have to be able to go with dignity. Meanwhile, the security situation is unraveling, and we’ve just heard that Islamic militants have seized a weapons factory in the south of the country. Now, over in Syria where things got very violent last week — Amnesty International estimates 55 people have been killed by the security forces in one town alone — now, President Assad has made some concessions to release 260 prisoners, for example, but it hasn’t worked. We have huge demonstrations again today, many of them sparked by the funerals of those killed earlier in the week. In Jordan, things are a little quieter. The king, though, has been forced to offer concessions there to keep the peace, including some measures that would limit his own power. Bob?

MR. SCHIEFFER: And you haven’t even brought up where you are in Libya. What’s the situation there? MS. PALMER: Well, the rebels made a dramatic advance today. They’ve been fighting for a town called Ajdabiya on the coast for four days. They took it overnight. They swept forward to the next town on the road called Brega. And they say that, essentially, the pro- Gadhafi forces are in real retreat. Now, they were able to take that territory because there was extensive bombing by the NATO and allied planes last night that took out a lot of the pro-Gadhafi heavy armor, the tanks and the heavy guns. It looks as if the pro-Gadhafi forces are retreating to Gadhafi stronghold of Surt, and the rebels are following. But it’s pretty clear that they won’t be able to take that town without very, very comprehensive and proactive support from the skies. Bob? MR. SCHIEFFER: All right. Well, Liz, thank you so much. Liz Palmer in Tripoli this morning. Good morning again, and we are joined in the studio by the secretary of state and the secretary of defense. Madame Secretary, let me start with you. Tens of thousands of people have turned out protesting in Syria, which has been under the iron grip of the Assads for so many years now, one of the most repressive regimes in the world, I suppose. And when the demonstrators turned out, the regime opened fire and killed a number of civilians. Can we expect the United States to enter that conflict in the way we have entered the conflict in Libya?

SEC. CLINTON: No, each of these situations is unique, Bob. Certainly, we deplore the violence in Syria. We call, as we have on all of these governments during this period of the Arab Awakening, as some have called it, to be responding to their people’s needs, not to engage in violence, permit peaceful protest and begin a process of economic and political reform. The situation in Libya which, engendered so much concern from around the international community, had a leader who used military force against the protesters from one end of his country to the other, who publicly said things like we’ll show no mercy, we’ll go house-to- house. And the international community moved with great speed in part because there’s a history here. This is someone who has behaved in a way that caused grave concern in the past 40-plus years in the Arab world, the African world, Europe and the United States. MR. SCHIEFFER: But, I mean, how can that be worse than what has happened in Syria over the years where Bashar Assad’s father killed 25,000 people at a lick? I mean, they opened fire with live ammunition on the civilians. Why that is different from Libya?

SEC. CLINTON: Well — MR. SCHIEFFER: This is a friend of Iran, an enemy of Israel. SEC. CLINTON: Well, if there were a coalition of the international community, if there were the passage of a Security Council resolution, if there were a call by the Arab League, if there was a condemnation that was universal, but that is not going to happen because I don’t think that it’s yet clear what will occur, what will unfold. There is a different leader in Syria now. Many of the members of Congress of both parties who have gone on Syria in recent months have said they believe he’s a reformer. What’s been happening there the last few weeks is deeply concerning, but there’s a difference between calling out aircraft and indiscriminately strafing and bombing your own cities than police actions which, frankly, have exceeded the use of force that any of us would want to see. MR. SCHIEFFER: Secretary Gates, you have strongly condemned Bashar Assad and said he must learn from Egypt. I think it’s fair to say he didn’t pay much attention to you.

SEC. GATES: Well, that’s not a surprise. (Laughter.) What I — MR. SCHIEFFER: Should he step down? SEC. GATES: What I said when I was in the Middle East was that the lesson that should be taken from Egypt was where a military stood aside and allowed peaceful protests and allowed political events to take their course. That’s basically the lesson that I was talking about with respect to Assad. In terms of whether he should stand down or not, you know, these kinds of things are up to the Syrian, up to the Libyans themselves. MR. SCHIEFFER: This whole region is in turmoil now. Trouble in Bahrain, in Yemen whose governments have been allies of ours in the fight against terrorism. Now, there are demonstrations in Jordan, one of our closest allies in the Arab world. How do we decide which of these countries we’re going to help and which ones we’re not? SEC. CLINTON: Well, Bob, we’re trying to help them all. I mean, you know, there is a lot of different way of helping. We have certainly offered advice and counsel. I think the role that the United States played in Egypt, for example, particularly between our military, between Secretary Gates, Field Marshal Tantawi, between Admiral Mullen and his counterparts, was only possible because of 30 years of close cooperation. So we have to look at each situation as we find it. We don’t have that kind of relationship with a country like Syria. We just sent back an ambassador for the first time after some years. And as you recall, you know, the administration decided we needed to do that because we wanted somebody on the inside. The Congress was not so convinced that it would make a difference. Each of these we are looking at and analyzing carefully, but we can’t draw some general, sweeping conclusions about the entire region. MR. SCHIEFFER: Well, let’s talk about Libya a little then. We had — the U.N. resolution is in place. It’s established the no-fly zone. NATO is going to take over the operations there. But it does not call for regime change, and the president has said that Mr. Gadhafi has to go. That seems a bit contradictory.

SEC. GATES: Well, I don’t think so. I think what you’re seeing is the difference between a military mission and a policy objective. The military mission is very limited and is restricted to the establishment of the no-fly zone and for humanitarian purposes to prevent Gadhafi from being able to use his armed forces to slaughter his own people. That’s it. And one of the things that I think is central is you don’t, in a military campaign, set as a mission or a goal something you’re not sure you can achieve. And if we’ve learned anything over the past number of years, regime change is very complicated and can be very expensive and can take a long time. And so I think the key here was establishing a military mission that was achievable, was achievable on a limited period of time and that could be sustained. MR. SCHIEFFER: There are some people in the Pentagon quoted in various newspapers as saying this no-fly zone may last for three months or so. How long do you think this is going to be in place?

SEC. GATES: I don’t think anybody has any idea. SEC. CLINTON: But, Bob, I think it’s important to take a step back and put this into context. When the Libyan people rose up as their neighbors across the region were doing and said, look, we want to see a transition, it was after 42 years of erratic and brutal rule. Gadhafi’s response was to basically not just ignore but to threaten and then to act on those threats. Our country, along with many other countries, were watching this unfold. The United States Senate passed a resolution calling for a no-fly zone on March the 1st. As Bob reminded everybody, there’s a difference between calling for it and actually enforcing it. When the Security Council, in a really stunning vote of 10 to 5 –10-4 of 5 abstentions — said, look, take all necessary measures to fulfill this mission of protecting the Libyan people, it was a mission that the United States, of course, was going to be in the forefront of because of our unique capabilities. But look at the coalition of European, Canadian, Arab countries that have come together to say we’re going to make sure that we protect these civilians. The military mission is not the only part of what we’re doing. We have very tough sanctions that are ferreting out and freezing Gadhafi and Gadhafi family assets. We have a lot of diplomats and military leaders in Libya who are flipping, changing sides, defecting because they see the handwriting on the wall. We have an ongoing political effort that is, you know, really picking up steam to see if we can’t persuade others to convince Gadhafi to leave. So, you know, we see the planes going up, but that is just a piece of an overall strategy — MR. SCHIEFFER: Well, do you think it’s going well then? I mean, would you give it —

SEC. CLINTON: Oh, I think it’s going — MR. SCHIEFFER: — good marks so far? SEC. CLINTON: — very well. SEC. GATES: I think the military mission has gone quite well. I think we have been successful at — you know, there was never any doubt in my mind that we could quickly establish the no-fly zone and suppress his air defenses, but I think what has been extraordinary is seeing a number of different countries using their combat aircraft in a way to destroy some of his ground forces that really involves an extraordinary discrimination of targets. And, you know, I pushed back when I was in Russia last week against the comments that both Prime Minister Putin and President Medvedev have made about civilian casualties. The truth of the matter is we have trouble coming up with proof of any civilian casualties that we have been responsible for. But we do have a lot of intelligence reporting about Gadhafi taking the bodies of people he’s killed and putting them at the sites where we’ve attacked. We have been extremely careful in this military effort, and not just our pilots but the pilots of the other coalition air forces have really done an extraordinary job — MR. SCHIEFFER: He’s taking bodies and putting them in places —

SEC. GATES: We have a number of reports of that. MR. SCHIEFFER: In more than one place? SEC. GATES: Yes. MR. SCHIEFFER: How many places? SEC. GATES: You know, we just get various reports. MR. SCHIEFFER: Let me ask you this. There are reports that we may arm the rebels. Is that in fact going to happen? SEC. CLINTON: There’s been no decision about that. We are in contact with the rebels. I’ve met with one of the leaders. We have ongoing discussions with them. We’ve sent both the ambassador that was assigned to Libya plus a young diplomat to have this ongoing dialogue with the opposition. But there’s a lot of ways that we can assist them, and we’re trying to discuss that with our allies in this effort, and we will be when I go to London on Tuesday. MR. SCHIEFFER: Let me just ask you this. Under this armed embargo and the resolution and so forth, could you — if you decided you needed to do that and wanted to do it — could you do it under the current resolution? SEC. CLINTON: Yes. MR. SCHIEFFER: You believe you could? SEC. CLINTON: Yes. And the reason is because there is an arms embargo against the Gadhafi regime that was established in the first resolution, Resolution 1970, which applied to the entire country. In the follow-on resolution, 1973, there is an exception if countries or organizations were to choose to use that. MR. SCHIEFFER: Let me ask you this, Mr. Secretary, we say it’s time for Gadhafi to go. You say that the military part of this, the no-fly zone is going well. But I don’t think anybody really believes that this rag-tag group of resistance fighters, as brave as they are, could actually topple this man who has these tanks and artillery and that. SEC. CLINTON: He has a lot fewer now than he did a week ago. (Chuckles.) MR. SCHIEFFER: Well, exactly. But how is the thing going on the ground? And do you really think that these people could topple him without some kind of help from the outside?

SEC. GATES: Well, first of all, we’ve prevented him from moving on toward Benghazi. Those forces were destroyed. We have evidence that he’s withdrawing from Ajdabiya and back further to the west because we’re not only striking his armor, we’re striking his logistics and supplies and things like that. And, you know, just to Secretary Clinton’s point, you know, we have things in our toolbox in addition to hammers. And so there are a lot of things that can go on here. His military can turn. We can see — we could see elements of his military turning, deciding this is a no-win proposition. The family is splitting. Any number of possibilities are out there, particularly as long as the international pressure continues and those around him see no future in staying with him. MR. SCHIEFFER: Well, having said all of that, do you think that’s what’s going to happen here? I mean, can he — can these people really do this with just some help from up in the sky there? SEC. CLINTON: Well, you know, Bob, I know how concerned people are and, obviously, the president will speak to the country Monday night and answer, I think, a lot of those concerns. The Security Council acted a week ago Thursday. The effort to enforce the Security Council resolution is barely a week old. We’ve already seen quite significant progress on the ground. As Bob just said, we believe, based on the intelligence and what our military is seeing, the Gadhafi forces are withdrawing, moving to the west. Yes, this is not a well-organized fighting force that the opposition has, but they are getting more support from defectors, from the former Libyan government military, and they are, as Bob said, they brave, moving forward and beginning to regain ground that they lost when Gadhafi, you know, was brutalizing them by moving toward Benghazi. So, you know, this is a really short period of time in any kind of military effort, but I think the results on the ground are pretty significant.

SEC. GATES: I’d just underscore it. The military attacks began essentially a week ago, last Saturday night. And don’t underestimate the potential for elements of the regime themselves to crack and to turn. I mean, it isn’t just the opposition — MR. SCHIEFFER: So you think its day are limited? SEC. GATES: I wouldn’t be hanging any new pictures if I were him. SEC. CLINTON: (Chuckles.) MR. SCHIEFFER: What would be an acceptable outcome? You want him out, but would you be satisfied if the country wound up partitioned or something of that nature? SEC. CLINTON: I think it’s too soon to predict that. I mean, one of the reasons why we are forming a political contact group in London this coming week is because we want to get a unified political approach just as we have forged a unified military approach. And as both Bob and I have said, there are many ways that this could move toward the end state. If you think about what happened in the ’90s, you know, it took a while for Milosevic to leave, but you could see his days were numbered even though he wasn’t yet out of office. And so there’s a lot of ways that this could unfold. What is clear is that Gadhafi himself is losing ground. He has already lost legitimacy, and the people around him, based on all of the intelligence and all of the outreach that we ourselves are getting from some of these very same people, demonstrate an enormous amount of anxiety. And, you know, that will play itself out over time. SEC.